'The Punisher' (1989) Retrospective- Act 3.

by Dave Scrimgeour, Mike Nay & Kev McCluskey

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​New World Pictures (Australia)

In Association with Mace Neufelo and Simon Heath

presents a Robert Kamen production
​
of a Mark Goldblatt film

Dolph Lundgren

Louis Gossett Jr.

The Punisher

Starring Jeroen Krabbe

​Kim Miyori

Production design by Norma Moriceau

​Director of photography- Ian Baker

Edited by Tim Wellburn

Executive producer- Robert Guralnick

Written by Boaz Yakin and Robert Kamen

Co-producer- Su Armstrong

Produced by Robert Kamen

Directed by Mark Goldblatt

Based on the Marvel comics character

Distributed by New World International

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Kev
Now see, as much as I’m saying Lundgren still maybe wasn’t the best at emoting with dialogue at this point, his body language is great.  His physical acting is great.  He’s got that slouched, kind-of….


Dave
....detached.....


Kev
.....detached, yeh, detached feel to his performance.


Dave
And you see how good an actor Gossett-Jr. is in this scene.


Kev
Yeh.  And Lundgren is holding his own here actually, to be fair.  When he’s got what is arguably better material to work with in this scene, he is able to step up.

When your best mate has to come down and bail you out of the cells after a rough night on the tiles.

Dave
Frank just can’t be arsed with Jake here though.


Kev
Yeh.


Mike
Actually, I like the conversation between the Bernthal Punisher and Daredevil in season 2 of Daredevil a lot more.


Kev
The one where Punisher has Daredevil chained to the chimney stack on the roof?


Mike
Yeah, that’s the one.


Kev
Yeh, it’s good, isn’t it?


Dave
But this is a cracking scene.


Kev
Yeh, this is a good scene as well, man.  Even the way they start it with that classic Punisher statement, “Frank is dead!”  It’s that, ‘They took everything I cared about away from me,’ starting point for the character.


Dave
Do his kids have Spider-Man pyjamas on?

Does whatever a spider can. Shoots an Uzi 9mm.....

Kev
Ha, ha.  Yeh, they do.  That’s quite a good sequence as well, that pulling back from the bed, intercut with the rapid fire flashbacks. 


Dave
Yeah.


Kev
Again, we’re dealing with this idea that there are consequences to Frank’s actions.  He disappeared while he went on his vengeful killing spree for the last five years, and Jake was kind-of just left on his own to pick up the pieces of his life.  There’s always an armoured car heist in these films as well, isn’t there?


Dave
Yeah, there is.  We’re an hour into the film at this point and it has flowed really, really well.


Kev
Yeh.  And like you were saying about him being kidnapped before, Mike, he’s been a captive of the Yakuza, the police, and now the Mafia as well.


Dave
Yeah, he just gets by.  By the skin of his teeth really, you know what I mean?  He’s not invincible.  The number of times that he could have been killed is unbelievable.


Kev
And it’s the nihilism of it as well.  He doesn’t really care whether he dies, because he has nothing to live for.


Dave
The mission is the only reason he keeps living, yeah.


Kev
That’s why the Mafia are having to bring other people into this situation here and threaten their lives, to bend Frank to their will.  And is this maybe a bit of a comment on Frank's brand of vigilantism, in that a character like The Punisher can be easily manipulated by greater, outside forces?


Dave
Definitely, ‘cause The Punisher was often quite easily manipulated.  Remember in the comics, in ‘Circle Of Blood,’ how quickly he was manipulated in that as well?

Brutalist interior decoration.

Kev
Right enough.  By that group,.....what were they called?


Mike
The Trust.


Kev
The Trust.  That’s it, yeh.  Going back to what you were saying earlier, Mike, about how all you needed to do was have the skull on this character design, have you ever seen the screenshots online, where someone has superimposed the skull onto this top, from this part of the film?  Honestly, it looks amazing.


Mike
Yeah, have Frank it spray it on, like they did in the comic book movie adaptation.


Kev
Did he spray it on in that adaptation, yeah?  If they had the skull on that undershirt, it would’ve looked superb.


Dave
In case they ever did a reboot, or they could even do it for this film, just superimpose it on there for a re-release, or a bonus feature, or something.


Kev
Totally.  There was also something online, not too long ago, where someone had Lundgren model for a couple of shots in that Ross Andru pose from the cover to Amazing Spider-Man #129, wearing a Punisher t-shirt, and someone had written that if you wanted to do an ‘Old Man Punisher’ style of story, Lundgren is the perfect age for it now.  And a better actor now than he was back then.  More respected as well, if you look at the praise he received for his performance in 'Creed II,' for example.


Dave
Louis Gossett Jr. is a weighty actor, so when you put him in these scenes, he just makes them work.


Kev
He elevates all that stuff, doesn’t he?


Dave
Yeah.  And again, a little comic touch with the pizza.

Slice, slice, Baby. Pizza slice, slice, Baby.

Kev
Even that bit there, with the big cheesy grin and the laugh, ‘Yeh, I’ll take a slice on my way out.’  And again, we’ve got this theme of having to make deals with devils here.  Is it even a case of making a deal with the LESSER of two evils, or is it just ANOTHER evil.


Dave
Yeah.  The set design for this film is brilliant.


Kev
I agree.  This bit in particular, is fantastic.


Dave
And it’s quite colourful.  For a dark movie, it’s got a lot of colour in it.


Kev
There’s definitely a lot of light in it, yeh.  And there’s certainly some red in it now, with the way this scene is lit.  You’re right, Mike, put a skull on that shirt here, and THAT’S your comic book accurate Punisher, isn’t it?  Look at that.

Talk about seeing red.

Dave
With the Jon Bernthal one, they did put a lot more armour on him.  Which is fair enough, because the way that show went, he was going to need that.


Kev
Ha, ha!  Totally.  For it being a low budget, late 80s, straight to video, in this country at least, comic book adaptation, which is really violent, movie, there’s still quite a bit of philosophy behind violence and revenge in it.  Even that exchange there, “There’s a limit to revenge.”  “Well I’ve not reached mine yet.”


Dave
Yeah.  And he even came for this random Mafia guy, y’know what I mean?


Mike
Yeah, The Punisher hasn’t reached his limit yet, he’s thinking, ‘I’ve still got to kill you.”


Kev
Ha, ha!  You’re right though, Mike, that’s essentially what he’s saying here, isn’t it?  ‘I’ve not reached mine, and you’re still on my list, by the way.’


Dave
Yeah.  You can see the hits here, with Lundgren.  It looks like he really has the technique.  Which he really does, of course.


Kev
Yeh, you’re right, man.  It’s that difference between training an actor for the fight scenes in a film, and having an actor who has already been trained and is able to do it on film.


Dave
One of the funniest ones for it is ‘Commando,’ when Schwarzenegger is fighting that guy at the end.  It’s such a lame fight scene, but it’s still funny.


Kev
I rewatched the Knight Rider pilot, and there’s a fight scene where Michael Knight is supposed to take-out an entire bar room of these rednecks, but you see The Hoff doing absolutely nothing.  It’s just the guys flying into tables and over the bar, because David Hasselhoff clearly wasn’t really trained in any kind of martial arts.  This bit here with the lights is great.

You might actually hit a target if you kept your eyes open when you pull the trigger, Dolph.

​Dave
That bit is great, yeah.


Kev
It looks amazing.


Dave
The slow motion.  The way the guy falls through the wall.


Kev
Yeh, and all these guys coming through these walls as well.  What do they call that traditional Japanese wall?  Those papier mache walls.  Do they have a particular name?


Dave
Shoji, I think.


Kev
They make really good use of them in ‘The Wolverine’ as well, don’t they?  And in ‘The Master’ too.


Dave
Yep.  That’s great the way The Punisher flips that knife.  That’s a brilliant technique.  I think Dolph Lundgren was the perfect actor at the time for The Punisher.


Kev
Yeh.  People always speculated at the time about Arnold Scwarzenegger doing it, but….


Mike
I think Arnie, the way he was at the time, would have been too muscular for it.


Dave
And Schwarzenegger has never been great with hand-to-hand stuff.


Kev
No, you’re right, Dave, he hasn’t, has he?


Dave
He’s never really had a great hand-to-hand fight scene in any of his films.  The one in ‘True Lies,’ where he fights the guy in the bathroom is good, to be fair.  This is a great fight scene though.  Have you seen the interview where Dolph Lundgren is talking about this scene?

"I've got good news. That gum you like is going to come back in style."

​Kev
No.


Dave
It was from when he was promoting ‘Creed II’ that someone asked him about it.  He says the guy he was in this scene with wanted it to be a real stick to kick here, so that it would break properly.  This is a terrific fight scene.  It’s a proper fight.


Kev
Yeh, like a brawl, but with good technique as well.


Dave
Oh yeah.


Kev
This is what I mean about Lundgren’s blocks, his hands are always up, like someone who you can tell has actually competed.....


Dave
.....in Kyokushin.  Full contact.  Well, if nothing else works, just shoot the explosives, I suppose.
 

Kev
Yep.  There’s definitely a cut there, when this guy gets skewered, isn’t there?

"Where we're from, the birds sing a pretty song and there's always music in the air."

Mike
Oh yes.


Kev
“Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.”


Dave
Ha, ha!


Kev
Nope?  Wrong film.  Heroes that are half cut.


Mike
Or half drunk.


Dave
He’s not got a pizza, or anything.


Kev
I’ve always thought that Lundgren has a good side-thrust kick.  


Dave
Yeah, he does.  He has a great one.


Kev
Both spinning and straight-on.  It’s very good.


Dave
It just looks dead powerful.


Kev
Yeh.


Dave
Oddly enough, Ebon Moss-Bachrach, that played Micro in the Netflix Punisher series, doesn’t look too dissimilar to Barry Otto, does he?


Kev
No, he doesn’t.  I always thought Ebon Moss-Bachrach looked a bit too healthy to be Micro, to be honest.  He’s pretty lean.  Now that’s a nice, albeit maybe all-too-convenient and coincidental plot contrivance, but the two of them bumping into each other outside the building and Jake spotting the knife, is a good way to get those two characters in the same space.

Knife, knife, Baby!

Dave
Yeah.


Kev
The red light here looks great, I think.


Dave
It does, doesn’t it?  There’s a lot of good use of colour in this film.


Kev
And I suppose, it ties back to the colours that were used in the opening titles sequence as well, ‘cause they used a lot of primary colours there.


Dave
Yeah, it’s a good colour palette, isn’t it?


Kev
Yeh.  It’s basically red and black here.  Kind-of monochrome.  It looks great.  And again, your main henchman is actually a woman.


Dave
Yeah.


Kev
It’s a case of power versus finesse in this fight scene here.


Dave
The music’s quite good as well.


Kev
Yeh, man.  This piece of music is great.


Dave
I think a lot of this stuff was spliced.


Mike
Ha, ha!  I just love the way the music stops when her neck breaks.

Frank goes palm-to-palm.

Kev
And although it’s a well-used technique of de-powering your hero as he’s going into the final battle, the way that they’ve gradually done it over the course of the film is quite good.  He’s taken a few beatings, and now he’s also got quite a few major injuries as well.  He’s been shot, he’s got this stab wound, they’re all starting to add up.


Mike
There’s been quite a few movies with female action heroes, where the woman is maybe 120lbs or something and she’s able to take on a guy that’s about 300lbs.....


Kev
Funny you should mention that, Mike, ‘cause Lexi Alexander, who directed ‘Punisher: War Zone,' she’s a martial artist herself…..


Dave
Oh yeah, she’s a martial artist.


Kev
…..and she comments on that.  I’ve seen her say that she’s like, 5ft 7” and that if she kicks some guy that’s 6ft 4”, 275lbs, he’s not going down.


Dave
Yeah.  This is a cracking scene as well, ‘cause you see the brutality and the viciousness of what she’s doing.


Kev
And for all Lady Tanaka's talk of honour, it’s shown to be bullshit here.


Dave
And here he comes.  Good aim from Frank there.

Skull-knife-skull.

Kev
We’ve got the knife as the primary weapon, and his calling card here.  And again, you’ve got this thing where, although Gianni’s a Mafia boss, this father/son thing is quite sincere.  It’s genuinely touching.


Dave
I like the music here, ‘cause it takes a different direction.


Kev
Yeh, it changes the tone and the mood.


Dave
It does, yeah.  It’s quite haunting.


Kev
Yeh.  That turn there from Gianni, even after everything that’s happened between him and The Punisher, he’s still going to kill Frank.  I suppose that’s what happens when you make a deal with the devil, so to speak.  And does this ultimately speak to the futility of Frank’s war?  Even after all that he’s done for the Franko’s, Tommy is still going to inherit this crime family and take his father’s place at the head of the table some day.


Mike
That kid is getting shoved around a lot.


Kev
Ha, ha!  Yeh, he’s been thrown around a fair bit in this film.


Dave
By this time, Frank must be really exhausted.


Kev
And wounded to boot.  There’s a bit more of a Jiu Jitsu-style, and ground work to the fight choreography here, isn’t there?  There you go, Mike, you’re right, Tommy goes flying yet again.


Dave
Stunt kid.


Kev
Ha, ha!


Dave
If nothing else, he’s got a future as a stuntman, if he decides that he doesn’t want to go into the Mafia.

"Elvis has left the building."

Kev
We’re seeing the complexity of it here, Tommy is telling Gianni…..


Dave
…..to stop, yeah.


Kev
So does he have more in common with Frank, in certain ways, than he does his dad?  And then, because of this, we get the turn again here, don’t we?  It’s going back to that cycle of violence theme, where Tommy was essentially playing peacemaker there, until Frank kills his dad, and then he turns on Frank.  


Dave
And Frank just throws the gun down for him to do it.


Kev
Yeh.  Is there not a similar scene in ‘Circle of Blood’ where he challenges one of the Mafia boss’s nephews to kill him as well, but the nephew can’t bring himself to do it?


Dave
I think so, yeah.  That’s right.  “You’re a good boy, Tommy.  Grow up to be a good man.  ‘Cause if not, I’ll be waiting.”  Pep talk from The Punisher.  'Don’t be a dick.'


Kev
Ha, ha!  Yeh, pep talk from Frank, but with a threat at the end of it.

"This time the bullet cold rocked ya. A yellow ribbon, instead of a swastika. Nothin' proper about your propaganda."

Dave
Yeah.  Again, I love the way the music is not ending the film on a good note.


Kev
No.  It certainly is not.


Dave
It’s quite a bleak piece of score.


Kev
Yeh.


Dave
And the music gets even darker as this scene goes on.  I love the end of that scene, with Jake shouting after him.  It’s a really depressing note to end it on.


Kev
And those cuts as well, as it’s getting further and further away.  It’s showing you that Jake has lost Frank in more ways than one.

"These are small."

Dave
This is the same shot that they used at the start of this film, this tracking shot through the sewers.


Mike
One final bum shot.


Dave
Haha!


Kev
And again, this theme of it being a cycle of violence.  It’s a circle.  You start and you end at the same place, and it just keeps going round and round and round and round.


Mike
Well, that was good.  It’s been a while since I’ve seen that movie.


Kev
I actually think it’s the best Punisher film.


Dave
Yeah.  Y’know what?  It’s a cracking story.  It really is.


Kev
It’s not the most “Punisher,” Punisher film, but I think it’s the best film with The Punisher in it.


Dave
Yeah, the one with Thomas Jane in it isn’t very good, was it?


Kev
It’s got its moments, but overall it’s not my favourite, no.


Dave
It’s too slow.  I think the director, Jonathan Hensleigh, said he wanted to make it more like a western, to a certain degree.  He was going for the western angle.  He must’ve liked his westerns.


Mike
To be honest though, I think my favourite Punisher has still got to be Jon Bernthal.

"But the ones out there....."

Kev
Do you think Bernthal is the best, yeh?


Mike
Yeah.  Especially that bit in Daredevil, when he’s in court and he’s trying to get himself put in prison and he’s just ranting on.


Dave
Are you including the TV series as well, Kev?  Or are you just talking about the movies?  I think when you actually watch this, you realise how good Lundgren was for that part at the time.


Kev
Definitely.


Dave
Obviously, he still got a lot of stick for it.


Kev
But the thing is, this has definitely become a cult film.  The more and more I’ve read about it online, and maybe it is just because I’m following Jeramie Damoiseau and his book and stuff, but whenever he posts about this film, there’s a lot of people who say that Lundgren is their favourite Punisher and this is their favourite Punisher film, and that they think it's really underrated.


Dave
It is, it’s totally underrated.


Kev
And apparently at a lot of cult conventions where they show it, people still really like it.


Mike
As I said, if you just put the skull on that t-shirt, it would have been perfect.


Dave
They should redo it and just put that on.

".....are far away."

Kev
Just superimpose it on.


Dave
Yeah, just superimpose it on, and you can do that now, with today’s technology.  It’s definitely a fluent story.  It doesn’t go over the top or anything, or get ridiculous, it sticks to the world that it’s set in.


Kev
And that‘s my major problem with…..


Dave
…..’War Zone.’  Yeah, you’ve said before.


Kev
Yeh, it’s like four or five different films competing for space within its runtime.  I get the impression that Ray Stevenson..... is it Ray Stevenson that’s Punisher?


Dave
Ray Stevenson, yeah.


Kev
He’s a good Frank Castle for the physical portrayal.  Much like Lundgren, he's got the stature.


Mike
He looks more like an aged Frank Castle.


Dave
Yeah, he’s supposed to be a bit more seasoned in his work in that one.

"I feel like I know her, but sometimes my arms bend back."

Kev
Definitely.  Ane he’s good at what he’s doing with the character, ‘cause he’s playing it really quite grounded.  And then you’ve got…..


Dave
…..Dominic West.


Kev
Yes, Dominic West.  Who’s playing Jigsaw, like he’s in some kind-of mad, 1966, TV series version of The Punisher.


Dave
The Punisher pantomime, or something.


Kev
Yeh, he’s giving it all the cliched mafioso dialogue, inflections, mannerisms and everything.


Dave
Yeah.


Kev
There are points when you’re watching it where you’re thinking, ‘What fucking film has HE been told he’s in?  ‘Cause it’s certainly not the same film that Ray Stevenson’s been told HE’S in.’  But again, Lexi Alexander has since said that she didn't get to make that film the way she wanted to make it.


Dave
One of the things I did notice that they were doing, because I remember watching it on the behind the scenes stuff on ‘War Zone,’ where they were talking about how one of the things that they didn’t like in this sort of film was the never ending ammo.  So in that one, he was always locking and loading and changing clips all the time, because that way it made sense that he never ran out of ammo, and they wanted to emphasise that.


Kev
Yep, I think she’s really good at doing that sort of stuff, but from what I’ve read of her talking about the making of that film, there were so many different voices coming in and interfering with the production.


Dave
Yeah, too much interference from the studio on that one.  But do I love the music to this film as well.


Kev
Yeh, I like it too, man.  It’s a good soundtrack.  Even at the end as we’re wrapping things up here.  1989.  A vintage year.
​

​The end.

(D), (M) & (K)

Feeling blue, Frank?