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by Dave Scrimgeour & Kevin McCluskey   Publication Date- September 1987 Price- $9.95 Writer- Mike W. Barr Illustrator- Jerry BIngham Letterer- John Costanza Editor- Dick Giordano Jonathan Peterson- Assistant Editor Publisher- DC Comics Inc. synopsisBatman goes to work in conjunction with Ras Al Ghul and round one of his bout with Qayin ends in a draw. Despite this, there is still cause for celebration, as Talia announces that she is with child and that Bruce is the father. Qayin then takes the fight to the Al Ghuls, resulting in Talia seemingly suffering a miscarriage. Enraged, Bruce thwarts Qayin's revenge on Ras before returning to Gotham upon Talia's request. However, nine months later she gives birth to, then abandons, Damian Wayne. (K) Dave Any initial thoughts on the continuation of this story? Kev I think Barr's script is very heightened, even for a superhero story. Again, it's like a children's tale, a dream-like fable, but with some shady US foreign policy deals going on in it too. Dave It does start to venture into the James Bond territory, and Mission Impossible as well, with Batman as the leader of an assault team. Kev It really does, doesn't it? But that's not necessarily a bad thing, because it's handled well. Donal seems a bit useless though, right? Not exactly a stellar advertisement for the quality of the members of The League Of Assassins, is he? Dave True. There's also the valid point about the change of setting, as Batman, being a creature of the night, has to operate in a different type of stealth environment. And in daylight. This is a more tactical story. However it still suits Batman. Kev I like how Qayin is just hanging out, at night, on a rocket, with his shirt off. Dave I like the Qayin character. He's just a sheer, formidable looking force. He looks like a good match up for Batman. Plus, Talia is an extremely gifted fighter also. Kev I love the physical difference in Qayin, between the flashback and the present. He looks like a completely different man. Obviously there's 20-some years between them, but he looks like he's done nothing but eat chicken and train in a crossfit box for two decades. And this is way before crossfit was a thing. Dave There are a lot of similarities to Bane in terms of their physical stature. Kev Yeh. I'd say Bane is bigger and more muscular, but in terms of sheer physical presence, I completely agree. Bingham's art reminds me of Mike Zeck's work on The Punisher. Particularly 'Return To Big Nothing.' And there's nothing like having the news broken to you that you're going to be a dad for the first time, right after a failed mission, whilst you're still in your cape and cowl. Dave Indeed. Yeah, the artwork throughout this is top notch, with some good, clear, concise panels and nice blending of colours. Kev Yeh, the colour art is superb too. Donal's torture scene is pretty intense, and well illustrated by Bingham. I love his figures. They still look within the realms of human possibility and not some steroid, overblown body builder freakishness, which we know, can't move, have no cardio or endurance and are often weak as kittens on show days when they look their best because they're so dehydrated. Bingham's guys look athletic, they look like fighters. Tommaso Ciampa from NXT type physiques. His musculature, on Qayin for example, is excellent.  "Skullcrusher Henderson, THE master counterfeiter of old London town." Dave The first, albeit brief encounter with Batman and Qayin is quite a good match up, as Batman still has the skills to take him down.  "Rip-off of love. Trapdoor!" Kev Yeh. Despite Qayin getting the drop on him, Bruce is able to pull a reversal and use Qayin's momentum against him. Dave On page 43, the take off panel on half the page is superb and the two side panels show the vast openness of the area. Kev It's a superb panel. The use of blues for the sky is outstanding too. Dave Ra's al Ghul really does inhabit the Bond lair look, doesn't he? Kev Definitely. It's total Bond villain stuff. Right down to the League Of Assassins as his henchmen. And Qayin is really turning into a Bond villain at this point too, with the implied threat of crushing the General's skull with his bare hands. Dave The expression on Batman’s face is funny when he says the word "pregnant" on page 42. He looks like he has been poked from behind. Kev Ha, ha! You're right. There's definitely an 'Oh shit!' moment before the smile and the "That's wonderful!" Dave On page 44, the half page panel of the henchman dining is great. I love an artist who can put so much details into a picture. But as you said, Qayin’s torture scene is really brutal and he looks like he is taking so much pleasure in it.  I'm sure this will all work out fine. I can see no reason whatsoever that this family unit will end-up dysfunctional. Kev The depth of field on that panel is amazing and you're totally right about the level of detail. There's no empty space in that image whatsoever. No matter where your eye wanders on it, there's something that's interesting enough to grab a hold of your attention. Dave There is this kind of 'Game of Thrones' look in that panel. Kev It does have a certain medieval look about it, doesn't it? Qayin is really sadistic, isn't he? Dave Yep, the sadistic level in Qayin is high, which builds up the anticipation for another showdown with the Bat. Plus, Batman and happiness.....not meant to last. Kev Definitely, it helps stoke the desire we have, as readers, to see him get his comeuppance at the hands of the hands of the Bat. But you're right, happiness is not really on the cards for Bruce. Maybe it's us who are the sadists, not Qayin. As it's us who take a perverse pleasure in seeing Bruce Wayne continually put through the emotional wringer. It really is odd seeing a smiley, happy Batman at this point though. Dave Notice the use of the shades of blue dominating the colour palate on page 48, in the scene between Qayin and the General.  "And everything is blue for him, and himself and everybody around, 'cause he ain't got nobody to listen." Kev Yeh. It's borderline monochrome. It really helps illustrate the shadiness of the deals between these two, and General Yossid's response, to make Qayin the scapegoat and hand him over to the Americans, is more of the international intrigue stuff. Dave The next page is also superb. It's actually a full page with 5 panels intersected in it . There's so much going on, it's actually a shame they didn't put those panels on the next page and just left that as a full page spread. Kev I know what you mean. It's a total feast for the eyes. Bingham is really taking advantage of the oversized format of this book to play around with his panel layouts and splash pages. Often combining the two, such as on this page. He's actually using the panels to create gutters, so to speak, with the splash page, so that he can tell story within that one, establishing image too. Dave Do you think the suffering of Batman really does have to be a driving force behind him, would he lose his edge if all worked out well? Kev I hate to say it almost, but yeh. A happy Bruce Wayne does not an effective Batman make, for me. If Bruce Wayne was to be happy and have a family and so on, I'd want him to hang up the cape and cowl and just go and be happy. Dave I think so too. It's part of who he is meant to be and the tragedy of this always follows him around. Kev And we just love watching writers and artists torture him, decade after decade after decade. Dave Well at least for a brief while we, the reader, get to explore this side to him and see how this side to him works. He's certainly not the Dark Knight at this point. Kev Definitely more of the World's Greatest Detective than the Dark Knight, yes. It's interesting that, on page 57, Qayin rises from the earth, from the rubble of the explosion, in much the same way that Ra's does on page 1. Highlighting that they are similar in many ways. Not least in that they are both elemental forces of nature.  Dave Yeah, the rising from the ashes is probably meant to show how similar these two characters are. In the ambush by Qayin, we see how fiercely protective Batman becomes towards Talia, by shoving her away from the battle. Also, there's a few nifty moves in there against Qayin's henchmen. This is the advantage of drawing a graphic novel as opposed to a comic book issue, it really is like the movie and the TV episode comparison. Comics are more limited in terms of their pages and most of these panels would never look half as good in a standard format comic, and because they were painted, they are far more visually striking. Kev The greater page count and the oversized format of this book certainly have some advantages when it comes to storytelling. Dave It lends itself to the larger than life feel to this story. Kev Yeh, it's just a bigger canvas, I suppose. Talia’s certainly not going to let the fact that she is pregnant stop her from getting involved, physically. She's a trained fighter and a warrior after all. She's not accustomed to shirking away from fights. Dave She is not. Yet she seems concerned that Batman nearly got killed trying to protect her. Kev Definitely. This is where she begins to suspect that she can't have him as a family man and for him to be fighting crime the way he does as Batman as well. The two just can't co-exist. Dave But Batman is totally prepared to take her away from the war zone. I like how he just decides to say, ‘Screw you Ra’s, I’m done.’ Yet he just has this knack for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Kev Yeh, he's not the luckiest, is he? Bruce's priorities have changed very quickly with the knowledge of his impending fatherhood and he loves exclaiming that goons can wait for medical attention. Especially where the mother of his unborn child is concerned and should be taking proirity, in his opinion. This is getting a bit James Bond,' what with the weather machines and stuff. Although, the weather controlling satellite plot line is very reminiscent of 'Superman 3.' Dave That's true. On page 37 Batman’s talking about saving mankind from Qayin. This is a far cry from keeping the streets of Gotham safe. Kev Indeed. This is on a much grander, an international scale. The stakes are higher, not only with that, but with the added responsibility of having dependants too. Do you reckon you could take out Batman and replace him with Bond here? We’re in the Timothy Dalton, 'Living Daylights' era Bond in '87. Dave It has well gone down the Bond route in the second part of this story, the locations, the stuff in space, circa Roger Moore 007. Batman the romantic hero. Kev Yeh, but still with Ra's al Guhl and Qayin as the villains. Speaking of which, Qayin's look, shirtless, but with a cape is a very provocatively sexy look, but his grip strength must be off the charts. Like Harley Race strong. First he's crushing skulls and now he's crushing General Yossid's rib cage with his bare hands.  Qayin's Prime Ribs. Dave Qayin definitely displays more of his sadistic nature and brutality here by crushing the general’s rib cage. Again, using that blue, monochromatic palette to add to the effectiveness. Kev Yeh, it's definitely back to that monochromatic, blue look that you pointed out earlier for Qayin. Enter, Mikial Gorbachev. I'm liking how these political intrigue points and real world cameos are helping to tether an otherwise fantastical tale, what with it's weather machines and all, to reality.  "I have the Americans believing I am a nice guy. In some of their polls, I am more popular than their President." Dave I wasn’t sure about the conversation between Gorbachev and Reagan. It’s kind-of getting a bit much for me now. Kev I can see why, to be honest, but I'm still enjoying it. It's interesting that Gorbachev is named, yet Reagan isn't, even though it is clearly him who is US president. Dave I’m just waiting on Lt. Frank Drebin from ‘Police Squad’ to show up next. Kev Ah, man. That'd be my dream come true. "And don't let me ever catch any of you guys in America." What was it about the conversation between Reagan and Gorbachev that didn't do it for you? Dave It was just putting them in the story. Kev Did you feel it was cameos for the sake of cameos? Dave I just think that it could have been reiterated through a third party. Kev It probably could've been actually, yeh. And it might not have been any less effective if it had. How long a period of time is this set over? If feels like a matter of days, but for Talia to conceive, become aware of her pregnancy and also be aware of the loss of her unborn child, surely it must at least be a couple of months. This is what I mean when I say that the pace of this story could probably have done with being slowed down a hair. Just to let some of these bigger emotional beats resonate with the reader a bit more. Dave The time frame has no real consistency in this. There’s no mention of anything in Gotham, such as Batman’s mug posted on the missing person list or even a milk carton. Plus, how long did it take him to train Ra's men for the first mission? There is quite an overload of action in the second half of this story. Kev This is clearly supposed to be over a period of a weeks, perhaps even a couple of months and no-one in Gotham seems particularly concerned about Batman or Bruce Wayne's disappearance. Dave Also, Talia’s fainting was obviously a put on, yet the Bat fell for it. It makes you wonder what her reasoning behind telling Batman this really devastating news was. Kev Yeh, it's certainly unclear. I wonder, if at this point, she is just protecting the poor child from his father and his grandfather. Neither of them really provide what you'd call a "stable" environment in which to raise a child. I think she just became all too aware that their lifestyles and domestic bliss were in no way, shape, or form compatible. Dave Do you think Ra's would keep intervening in their lives and there wouldn't be any domestic bliss? Kev Definitely. This would be the heir to Ra's throne. The child would be expected to inherit the League Of Assassins and that's another thing that is just not going to be compatible with Bruce's philosophies and morality. Plus, there's also the argument that Talia also actively protects her child from Ra's clutches as well, as we’ll see later on. More excellent artwork by Bingham on pages 64 & 65.  First class on League of Assassins airlines. Dave Yeah, again, I’m really impressed by the artwork in this story. It's been consistently good throughout. Batman goes back to his more sullen nature again from this point onwards. Kev He really just shuts down at this point, doesn't he? He becomes a lot more vengeful. "I don't want to answer any questions. I just want to find Qayin." Do you think Bruce saying that he is willing to kill Qayin here? Dave It is possible that he has killing on the mind. It really is a GI Joe style, all out military assault from both sides. Neat takedown as he lands on the guard though.  Nice triangle choke, Bruce. Kev It's an excellent takedown. He’ll get a point for that, alright. It's also a good shot with the lightning to be able to hit Ra's plane. This weather machine is incredibly accurate. Dave I like how Qayin just shoves him out of the way as he makes a dive towards him, blinded by emotion. Qayin has no real beef with Batman, his beef is with Ra's. Kev It's become a bit of a triple-threat match. I suppose Qayin really has nothing to lose at all considering he's been given a terminal diagnosis. There's a couple of black and white panels and some of the artwork doesn't look quite as well rendered here at the end as it did in the beginning. Do you think this is the dreaded deadlines having an effect again? Dave Could well be. This half of the story is becoming a bit more jumbled. There is a lot going on and maybe Barr has tried to make this story too big. But Qayin is taking a serious pummeling from Batman now. Kev Yeh. Qayin's good. But he's a couple of decades past his prime. He's significantly older than Bruce and Batman is supposed to be one of the best hand-to-hand combatants in the world, so he's ultimately out of his league. As I've touched on before, if I have one criticism of this story, it's that it feels a bit compressed and a bit rushed in places. I wonder if Bingham started to feel the pressure of having so much to cover from Barr’s script towards the end of this. Dave Maybe they realised it had to be condensed down as it would be too long. Kev The tension has ramped right up with Gorbachev's intention to launch missiles at the US in retaliation for their perceived use of the weather machine against the Soviets. Dave All the loose ends are tied up and at this point its needing a place to round off. On page 73 that panel, of Batman holding Qayin by the throat, shows how defeated he is.  Nice ground and pound, Bruce. Kev Totally. He's done by this point. It's over. So Bruce doesn't intend to kill Qayin after all if he offers him to Ra's once he's done with him himself. And then Bats is forced to save Ra's from Qayin. Oh, what a tangled web. And drawing Qayin's signature "Q" on his own face in his own blood after he's been electrocuted? Bruce isn't screwing around here. It mirrors what Qayin's henchman did to the pregnant woman in the opening scene. "Perhaps now he is at peace." "Perhaps......I hope not. Bruce has absolutely no sympathy for Qayin whatsoever. I suppose, considering he was responsible for the loss of his child, that should not be surprising at all. Dave The final scene between Batman and Talia shows how broken their relationship has become, the realisation of it wouldn't work is magnified here. Kev Yeh. This is an excellent final scene between Batman and Taliah. It's really sad. It's filled with things unsaid and regret. That's also a superb image of Talia in panel 9 of page 75. It sums-up the scene, and in a lot of ways the entire story, in one, single image. And the following one between Bruce and Ra's is equally painful. I mean, Ra's calls Bats "son." That must sting for Bruce, given that he so desperately and clearly missed having a father figure in this tale, as well as the chance to be a father and have a family of his own too. The themes of this story are so perfectly realised by Barr and Bingham in these two short scenes. It's also an excellent splitting of the one image into three panels by Bingham to slow the time of the proceedings down. If only more of this story had a similar pacing. Is Ra's the closest thing Bruce has to a father figure? Or, is it Commissioner Gordon, who was shown as having parental concern for Bruce in the opening scene. "Forget about the prisoners, Batman----get out of there....." Nah, it's got to be Alfred, right?  Starring Damian Wayne as The Ghost of Christmas Future. Dave And yet, despite all this, a mere 24 hours later the Bat is back in Gotham, solving the crime and back to his gritty hard nosed approach to being the sleuth. Kev True. It's pretty much back to business as usual, isn't it? Again, I feel the wrap-up of the Harris Blaine murder plot point is a little rushed and tied-up a bit too neatly. Although, Batman does call Harris Blaine JR, "son." More fathers and sons. More parental responsibility. This has been the big theme in this one. And there's even more of it on the second last page, with Gordon towards Batman. "...., you look like you've been through the wringer, are you alright?.... Anything you want to talk about?" Excellent wrapping-up of the main themes here by Barr. I mean, Gordon almost tells him to stop playing outside and to come indoors because it's about to start raining. How's that for fine parenting? Dave Yeah, it is quite funny how Gordon tells him to stay out of the bad weather. Like Batman really cares about a little rain. Kev Bruce has definitely got bigger problems than rain, right enough. Gordon's just looking-out for him though. Dave It’s certainly a relationship themed story and the parent child relationship is the main theme in this. In some ways Qayin maybe needed Ra's al Ghul like a father, but was too mentally disturbed to fully understand. Kev True. In the same way that Bruce needs a father figure. There are certainly similarities between Qayin and Batman. The obvious one being that both of their parents were murdered, of course. Dave It’s a dominant theme throughout the story. As are the flaws in human relationships. Kev Definitely. The lack of communication and things left unsaid. Speaking of which, does Talia keep his grandson secret from Ra's? Is she trying to keep the child away from two men who would ensure it has a completely messed-up upbringing? Dave Yep, I can't remember how the story turned out after this, but the last page shows the final reveal that she was telling porkies earlier. I wonder how she managed to hide the bump from her father. Actually, if you look at the back cover of this graphic novel Talia is drawn in the style of a Bond girl, with that dress and gun in her hand. Kev Ha, ha! She really is, isn't she? There's no room for a pregnancy bump in that get up, is there? I reckon she took off actually. Used the "miscarriage" as the cover to go and convalesce and gave birth whilst she was out of her father's reach. Dave Could have done, yeah. I would say that, while this isn't my favourite Batman story, I admire Barr for taking this in a different direction and the artwork is nothing short of excellent. Much like in ‘Master of the Future,’ the attention to details is so eye-catching. It does seem like towards the end it was a bit rushed, and I get the impression that, initially, this story was much longer. Kev Yeh. I love this thematically. They are so well considered and woven throughout this story. From the opening scene of the earth giving birth to Ra's, to the final scene of Talia having given up her and Bruce's child. Superb stuff. The pacing is the only real criticism I have of this. It's a bit too rushed for me and some of the thematic elements get a little lost in the shuffle as a result, but I agree, it's different for a Bat-story, it's engaging and visually, it's outstanding. It's little wonder that it sold as well as it did and that it's now considered a bit of a classic. Oh, and it allowed Grant Morrison to give us Damien Wayne. Now THAT'S a legacy.  Yeh, not too sure he ended-up being "the happiest baby in the world," if I'm honest. (D) & (K)
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